Took place on 2015-08-19 15:00

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  1. Old Business
  2. sopython dev
    • corvid - add materialize css?
    • QuestionC - host doxygen python documentation?
  3. Would a bot be a positive addition to the room? - We’ve been asked if we’d be willing to host a bot by a 3rd party non-regular user. This bot would have various commands such as !wikipedia and !killKevin. This discussion will mostly be about hosting this bot, but also may include discussion on RABBIT/CapricaSix etc.
  4. We do not meet over coffee/beers - We’re very friendly and generally get along with each other in the room, which is outstanding considering most of us have never met in person. That said, do we have room for improvement? Are there ways that we can better bridge the “distance gap” as an online community? This is meant as a brainstorming session.
  5. Room rules and culture: A discussion in N parts. - Mostly centered around tidying up the Python room rules page, possibly shortening or removing some of them. Will also discuss the addition of some kind of “room culture” section which explains the strange and frankly terrifying culture we have in our room, in particular those things which may confuse new users and aren’t really covered (with reason) in the rules.
  6. Message us to add your topic.
  7. AOB

Room owner topic discussion - This private room is for the ROs to discuss anything sensitive that might need to go on the agenda. Of course, we’re still open to suggestions from non-ROs :) . Message a room owner in the room or email us at and we will add your topic to the agenda.

Why do we hold these meetings?

We like to be open with what we do in the sopython community and with what plans we have for the future.

As such we like to hold these open-house meetings every once in a while for the development team to let everyone know what they’re up to, as well as letting anyone voice any opinions they have to the community at large (be they positive or negative). If you cannot attend the meeting but would like to be involved within sopython then you are of course welcome to bring this up with one of the room owners at a more convenient time.

Summer 2015 General Meeting Begins
Don the ceremonial robes, kick the sacrificial noob.
Agenda item 1: Old Business
Does anyone have any old business from the prior Spring 2015 meeting that he/she would like to discuss?
These are the notes from the last meeting:
Giving it 3 minutes before we move on to item 2.
The most outstanding item in my memory was regarding the logo for sopython.
Heh. Yeeeeah.
It is a beautiful work of art and I completely forgot that I redid it.
Is that the one where we were too Pythonic?
The prior issue is that we were too close to the official Python logo and it gave someone frown-lines.
What was the conclusion on the first point of moderation with the RO explaining rules with no support/piling on? in the affirmative?
Yes. If an ro is around and dealing with something, let the ro deal with it.
what if multiple RO's are around? (sits on his hands again)
Of course, now I think we're too close to the San Diego Padres logo:
To what extent does that also apply to standard SE chat rules? If there's a mod around, what's the situation?
@AaronHall we'll work it out
I tend to let whoever moves first handle it, and only join in if the user in question seems reluctant to believe the first RO.
We haven't changed the logo everywhere:
Oh yeah >_>
One discussion at a time for old business, please
Logo is the current point
Just to be clear, the new logo is the SP?
I like the new logo.
Yeah, I just took the old logo and moved the parts around to make SP
It's good, I forgot to change it in places, I think that's covered.
Do you have a link handy to the higher resolution version?
new logo rocks
Remember, we already discussed what's now old business last time. Read the minutes to get the full thing.
maybe we should license it for python :P
For those unaware, it's the favicon here:
No, it's just the tiny 16x16 icon
Okay. Is everyone satisfied with the logo topic?
The P in the favicon blends in a little with the default Firefox "inactive tab" color. Maybe it could use an opaque background
One final question before we move on from the logo stuff, if I may: who's been doing the logo work?
80s just called, they want their opaque background back
I think @poke or @PeterVaro made the original.
You were all meant to poke @poke a lot btw :P
My understanding is that we'd beg the talented Mr Peter Varo for work if he had time and that @poke is somehow related to the original
@poke poke
@DSM no one that I'm aware of - although I'm moving out of being completely beep at Blender and into just being extremely beep at Blender :p
Is everyone satisfied with following up on the logo after the GM? I'd like to move on as we have a lot to cover and many are at work
Well, thanks to those involved, anyhow, @poke or no @poke.
Fine with me.
Old business #2 "If there is an active room owner, let them deal with explaining rules, rather than have a bunch of people pile on and all respond"
I think we're doing pretty good with that.
Yes, feel free to leave it up to the ROs.
Yup, sounds like a plan.
In practice, we're pretty good at not flooding, so I believe that's covered.
Civilians will still link the rules every once in a while, but that's fine since it's usually when an RO isn't actively engaged in the conversation
Moving on to #2: sopython dev
OK, that's me
Is there somewhere I can view it?
Hello @corvid, come talk to us about sopython CSS
I don't know the context for this, but I assume @corvid potentially would re-skin
Oh hey what's up. Yeah there's a branch/fork showing a basic preview of Materialize CSS
@corvid are you around?
Okay, so people that are interested in the new CSS may view it there.
Is it still a WIP @corvid?
@tristan Yep, it's mostly just a sample more than anything. Only a few pages have styling really
@QuestionC are you around? you are related to the new agenda subitem.
Would we be doing this only for styling purposes or are there technical advantages?
one concern is it might add a bit of javascript, what are you guys' thought on that?
Fine with me. Where is this branch located, btw?
@DSM I assume styling. The current site is functional as is.
I'm ok with a bit of JavaScript.
OK, technical discussion isn't really the point of sopython-dev
I'm clicking on the "branch" tab on github, but I only see "master"
@Kevin Yeah, I can't find it either.
We use the issue tracker to discuss that sort of thing.
@DSM mostly styling and flashy animations and stuff like that. The actual functioning of the site remains mostly the same
Closing out the CSS item. @corvid please push up that branch.
requests the floor
@davidism please go ahead.
OK, technical discussion isn't really the point of the sopython-dev agenda item.
We use the issue tracker to discuss that sort of thing.
It's in a fork
Well said. I'm taking back the floor and we're moving on to the next subitem on #2.
hold up
This is a discussion about making the site design better, which I'm all in favor of. I really appreciate @corvid stepping up, and if anyone else wants to contribute (such as a better quality logo :) ), we appreciate all prs.
I might take you up on that. We'll see if there's anything I can do.
Is it worth adding a to outline expectations, etc?
@jonrsharpe I believe this is a good idea.
It then gets autolinked at the top of new issues
yeah the site functionality works well but the front end looks a little too bootstrap-y, no offense. I'm not sure how deployment works -- we sticking with CDNs for CSS and JS?
We'll hash this out later. The item on the agenda that we've steered away from is Corvid adding CSS.
Late Cabbage :'(
Just as a point of order, try to let the author of the agenda item and related users talk first, then jump into discussion.
** #2.b QuestionC - host doxygen python documentation?**
@davidism The agenda item was corvid and adding materialize CSS. Switching over to general site design and contributions is beyond that.
@Ffisegydd Go ahead please.
No I meant that you had a space that was messing with your markdown :P
@Ffisegydd Cheers.
@QuestionC are you here?
@QuestionC doesn't appear to be around, but the general gist was that there's a different type of Python documentation that can be useful, and he wanted to know if we'd host it on
@davidism Thank you.
Does anyone have anything to add to #2b before we move on?
I feel like it's somewhat beyond what I see as the site's duty
I'm really not sure if we should. I asked him to show a sample but he never got around to it.
I am neither for nor against it.
+1 to Kevin
Namely, providing resources that are specifically useful to chat and SO, rather than things useful to all Python devs everywhere
I'd be worried about hosting something that he and others might link to in answers, since sopython doesn't guarantee permanence of resources.
+1 to Kevin also
While I'm not opposed to sopython deciding at some point to provide a service, I'm not sure that's the best thing. And even if we did, it makes more sense to treat it as a separate project that many of us simply happen to be interested in.
I'm not sure what the doxygen python documentation would mean -- is this the doxygen code/documentation generation for Python?
Do we have a on sopy dev?
I don't think SOPython should be aiming to be the Doxygen equivalent of
If I've correctly understood the suggestion
I think it was geared specifically at the official Python docs only.
I believe this is decided. SOPython is related to StackOverflow python. Augmentation to the docs is a different site/focus.
@davidism don't we already have a wiiki entry of useful links to docs and the most common 3rd party libs?
@QuestionC if you'd still like to see discussion on this, please make a PR on our issue tracker with examples of what the docs are and what hosting them would mean.
Closing out agenda item 2
Item 3
"Would a bot be a positive addition to the room? - We’ve been asked if we’d be willing to host a bot by a 3rd party non-regular user. This bot would have various commands such as !wikipedia and !killKevin. This discussion will mostly be about hosting this bot, but also may include discussion on RABBIT/CapricaSix etc."
Personally, I'm 100% against a bot. Bots invade on human spaces on the internet and add noise.
I'm the one who brought this up this time. For those interested, my python_bot is running in the sandbox under my account.
My stance on bots continues to be "in favor, provided there aren't any commands that would take up a lot of conversational bandwidth, such as interactive games"
We don't want Johnny randomuser playing hangman for half a screen
+1 to Kevin again
@tristan Opinion on that: this bot only does stuff if you tell it to
@overactor awesome that you could be here :)
No posting random messages.
@Kevin well - bots can be programmed with access control
@Ffisegydd No problem
@ArtOfCode Yes, but people like to play with bots and they add noise.
I'm 100% against this.
rep limit to a bot
or need to have bronze ;)
@JonClements Ok, but Johnny RoomOwner shouldn't be playing hangman either ;-)
@tristan There's no denying that. However, we've not had any problems with bots running in various other rooms, and it can always be disabled.
Usually humans activate the bot though. Like Caprica Six responds to prompts from users
@ArtOfCode, @ProgramFOX and me developed the framework for this bot and we're all present.
I'm against a bot, I don't see the value added outweighing the potential inconveniences.
yeah me too, what would it possible provide
Like saying !!>docs os and getting a link to the python docs for OS could be pretty cool sometimes
@ArtOfCode The discussion item here is "would a bot be a positive addition." It's not about the specifics of a bot as that really doesn't matter.
The idea I believe (correct me if I'm wrong @overactor) was that it provides Python-running capabilities inline.
@corvid just goole it
@ArtOfCode Exactly
I definitely don't want to deal with people executing code in the room.
@corvid Yes, but then every line is noise that others have to read. This isn't a "what I'm googling stream of consciousness" room.
We already have problems with people pasting huge blocks, and there are better tools out there.
One of the core ideas of R.A.B.B.I.T. was to provide a deep integration into sopython.
A bot that turns long code snippets into gh gists would be cool though
Yeah, there are plans for a room bot, but it's more as a behind the scenes monitor and tools for the ROs
In practice, Caprica Six isn't used a huge amount, except for facetious comments of "just run it and see" or "just google it". But it does have cool features like deleting overly long code blocks
Fair points made. Idea: does it make sense (is there enough interest) to create a separate room, under the jurisdiction of people here, for the bot to live in and create said noise?
I must say, the bot in the javascript room seems to be integrated well.
@ArtOfCode Creating a room is free. I personally wouldn't join that room.
@davidism I think I agree with you there. If a user has to take a couple tries to get the output he wants, that falls afoul of my "no taking up half a screen" concern
Please don't create other rooms just to run a bot.
Does everyone agree that a bot would add extra noise to the room, please say yes or no (or some variation of depends)
Not necessarily
Also, I’m against votes.
Anyway, the conclusion is that we are working on a bot, but it's of a different nature than the one you've provided.
We can a trial run for a few days?
Yes (but I am prepared to be convinced otherwise by a good list of useful non-intrusive features)
Depends on the bot.
@poke Noted, but we make decisions generally on how many people are in favor.
OTOH, would a separate room be a good proving ground? Get the bugs out, get the noise down...
I don't want the bot running here, especially if the ROs don't control it.
@PatrickMaupin it's running in the sandbox
For those that believe a bot wouldn't add noise to the room, please explain
RO's could control it, but details.
@tristan No idea when that was decided, but okay…
@tristan It's human activated; it's disable-able; it's user-bannable.
The little framework we developed includes the option of making commands available to privileged users only.
@ArtOfCode That's on/off switches.
A bot means adding noise in the same way as having a user in the room adds noise. Yes, they can post stupid things. Yes, they can be annoying. But they can also provide valuable content.
@overactor I'm not talking about permissions, I'm saying I don't want to have something that the ROs aren't running.
If we're going to have a bot, it will be run from the sopython servers.
I think we have a practical example of a bot already: Caprica Six. You don't see that one flooding the javascript room often
@poke Is this content that we believe that we are not currently providing by human users?
@davidism Oh absolutly, I wouldn't imagine it any other way.
Does it require less knowledge to provoke the bot into providing content than it takes to provide the content directly?
Bots can also move noise to the Knives
@PatrickMaupin Example?
I'm not concerned with noise so much as upkeep. It would have to add continuous, high quality features that justify us keeping it up and running.
I guess the problem is that we're not talking about what the bot should do?
@tristan Automatisms are created to aid humans. Just because a bot would perform a task that a normal user could also provide, that doesn’t mean that they provide no utility.
@tristan Being able to run some python code right in the chatroom where everyone can follow is definitely useful I would say
@vaultah I believe that's deeply a human thing. I don't want a bot deciding what's on-topic.
People jumping in, going "oh cool a bot, command, command, command" and then not using it again is not a good use of resources.
@overactor Straight out: this is not something I want.
@ArtOfCode I don't have an example -- that's the point.
@tristan I'm talking about automatic removal of long code snippets and probably something else
6 mins ago, by Kevin
@davidism I think I agree with you there. If a user has to take a couple tries to get the output he wants, that falls afoul of my "no taking up half a screen" concern
@vaultah room/6/python isn't an internet-repl
7 mins ago, by davidism
We already have problems with people pasting huge blocks, and there are better tools out there.
@overactor I wouldn't like it: people would come and start testing code with the bot, and arguing "but the bot outputs this here" etc etc.
@davidism Going by that comment, wouldn’t make much sense either.
I really don't see the need for a bot to look up wikipedia, python docs, and run code for me.
@AnttiHaapala Not if you make it a privileged command
for room owners?
or for whom?
@tristan Yet it is another core feature that was meant to be included in R.A.B.B.I.T. which Jon and I have been investigating in over a year ago.
@overactor We're not talking about implementation details.
@poke The first is a truism. What would be an example of this? Reminding others to read the room rules?
@tristan But the entire "it will cause noise" argument falls flat if it's only usable by people selected by the RO
if this is about a bot for room owners, then if no room owner wants it... :D
@tristan Aren't the correct implementation details the only thing that could possibly make a bot worthwhile?
@davidism “People jumping in, going ‘oh cool users, how to do X, how to do Y, how to do Z, oh, and you all suck’” is also not a good use of a chat room, yet it happens.
@AnttiHaapala Definable by the RO
"You can flick on/off responses" is obviously a thing a bot can do. We know. Everyone knows.
@davidism inboxing comments said 5 minutes ago is also a waste of screen space.
@poke Cool, so now that and also "oh neat a bot. bot do X. bot do Y? why doesn't bot talk to me"
I wouldn't mind a bot that exclusively performs administrative duties, such as moving long code snippets to pastebin. If it has no cool toys for regular users to play with, then disruption will be minimal.
@poke "Some people act badly, therefore it might be OK if bots act badly"
Doesn't resonate with me.
Save perhaps for users that past long code snippets just to make the bot move them, but that seems more like a problem with the user than with the bot
but I guess no one would object to a bot doing administrative duties... if controlled by ROs
+1 to Kevin (again) :|
@PatrickMaupin bots don't act badly though, they act according to how they were programmed.
They can be abused.
@PatrickMaupin No. Some people act badly even without a bot; why does their potential misuse of a bot give further weigh in the discussion about having a bot or not?
floor please
But malicious user can abuse the chatroom with or without a bot.
I feel like this will go back and forth. Are others fine with the bot running in some sandbox chat and those interested in having a bot working out all the kinks?
@davidism Go ahead
Maybe a list of what we'd find useful and why would be more useful
I have almost no experience with bots, so I don't have much of an opinion on the matter. I suppose if it was helpful & minimally disruptive, it could be ok. But any experimenting / learning with the bot would have to be done in the sandbox, not in here.
Right now, it's mostly abstract debate about the merits of the bot, without actually saying why it would be good to have one.
@tristan An early example was to message new users when posting their recently posted question in the chat. That what many ROs do right now, which causes them to become frustrated and hostile towards new users.
So what features does this bot have that you feel are good additions to the room and why?
Please give @davidism the floor until he says he is finished.
It sounds like it falls into three categories
toy commands, such as wiki and doc lookup
maintenance commands
and code execution
I'm really not for 1 or 3, they seem to add more noise than convenience.
@davidism okay with opening the floor now?
A few things a bot could do that might be useful: create gists, delete unformatted / overly long code, broadcast manners if it perceives someone as breaking them (eg, posting a link to their own question and asking people to answer it), attempt to find canonical examples for questions if applicable
@davidism There is a trello board that was created a year ago in which members of this chat room collected features they would like to see for a sopython-owned bot. This was one of the core components back when we started the sopython project. It was always a part on our roadmap.
yeah, floor open, I'd like to hear from the bot authors
1. would necessarily cause more lines in the transcript, because the bot would be commanded by a line in chat, yes?

Many of us already have the cv-pls userscript, which would serving this better. And ppl would not use the stupid bot for that.
@davidism Specifically about what?
why should we add toy commands and code execution to the room?
Are people okay with using a more organized pro/con method and pointed discussion? We can put together a google doc.
What benefit does that have over you just looking the stuff up and pasting it yourself, being sure that the results will be correct.
I have to admit I don't have reasons; we proposed this because we thought they'd be useful
@davidism You don't need to of course, it seemed like it might be a good addition.
In line with what some other rooms have.
@ArtOfCode And that's appreciated, but bots change the culture of a room and we're very careful, passionate about ours.
If somebody had said "I'd like to add a bot that automagically migrates a snippet that is more than 5 lines long to a gist and replaces the message with a link to the gist" I don't think we'd be having this sort of discussion.
But all I saw was "let's add a bot".
The bot I would like to see would have to be very specific to our room rules and maintenance tasks.
Which, as @poke points out, we're already planning.
As I've said before, I'm not really an active member of this room
@PatrickMaupin Agreed. Giving this 5 more minutes maximum before shelving it to a more structured format.
@PatrickMaupin that's what I've been trying to say
So I have no intention of forcing this upon you at all.
Depends on how smart the bot is. For example, if it was able to find typos in code, or dupe questions (interface with nidaba?) then it could be pretty cool
Essentially, we were making a bot for our room over at opensource.SE
@corvid And it could add those to the gist as comments, right?
I'm abstaining from taking a position on the bot as I intend to run for President one day, and a controversial bot vote might hurt my chances. :) However, we've got 10 minutes left on the meeting...
It was in python and I figured it would be fun to implement code execution
Security holes are the most fun.
@corvid You contributed to the trello board in the past. You should know our plans.
@tristan time to move on?
We do not meet over coffee/beers - We’re very friendly and generally get along with each other in the room, which is outstanding considering most of us have never met in person. That said, do we have room for improvement? Are there ways that we can better bridge the “distance gap” as an online community? This is meant as a brainstorming session.
And then I figured people over here might be interested.
Moving on
@AaronHall Nowhere is there a time limit stated.
Convention meetups? (sorry, thought it was just an hour)
This item is mine and is going to be a 15 minute maximum topic.
there was talk about the sopycon london :D
This is a "how do we remain/encourage friendliness, understanding in our online community."
A few meetings ago, I proposed that we have more events. I never got around to coming up with them, but I'd really like to see them.
Everyone fly to $my_home_city is not an answer.
I mean, in room, online events, not in person meetups.
@davidism What did you have in mind for events?
I'd have to go back and find it, we brainstormed a bunch.
Hacks, streaming, cleanups, etc, to name but a few.
Ah. Would people find it beneficial to do occasional google hangouts or post times that anyone could join a multi-player video game together?
I remember code reviews and code livestreaming
Stuff like "let's make a canonical question" or "livestream sopython dev" or "drink of choice fridays"
@tristan Yes, definitely.
@tristan that would be cool.
Anyone could propose something and I'd add it to the room schedule, like I did with this meeting.
@tristan +1 to both
Pretty sure we've got a Minecraft server still kicking around.
Games are great. We had a minecraft server at one point, although it never got out of the testing phase.
competitive beer drinking
I have a backup of the world, if I ever find server space again.
@AnttiHaapala Challenge accepted :D
We've got a recommended reading list - I wonder if we could sustain some kind of simul-reading schedule.
Okay, so I see a potential difficulty of google hangouts and video games in that the prior can be awkward, the latter -- not everyone is interested in video games, and both are kind of time-dependent.
Yeah, let's make the reading and movie lists more prominent
I'm 60 pages into Wind-up Bird Chronicle and y'all need to catch up before I take all the good plot twists for myself
The events can literally be anything. We could have a "let's watch and discuss movie x", for example.
That said, moving in the right direction is better than sitting still, so would it make people happy if we had a list of "outside room" events/discussions/activities?
Yeah sure.
Asynchronous activities would be especially helpful.
I'll work to make the lists more prominent than other wiki pages.
Sorry people, I'm too tired. Rhubarb.
@davidism I don't know if anyone listens to The Incomparable podcast, but something like that could be fun.
@PM2Ring thanks for staying up
I am now reading the #1 German bestseller of all times, can't believe people actually wanted to pay for this ****.
Or Talk Python To Me, for something a little more topical!
What about stuff like codewars/other online competitions - we could enter as team "sopython" or something?
We have 7 more minutes for this item, so I'd like to remind people lurking that maybe don't feel like a regular to add their voice
@JonClements Would be interesting, yeah
Something we used to do a lot was pin interesting KickStarter projects for a couple days. People were always interested in those.
@AnttiHaapala What is it?
If anyone wants to communicate/link up/friend/followback with me outside of SOPython, that's fine.
@AaronHall My idea is to make it a friendlier/more personally social place.
@JonClements Me and other Jon used to code katas as races in our room. It was fun
So yeah, that's encouraged, but I think suggested/low-effort social engagement is how we become a better community
I should point out that no one is expected to engage in this if they don't want to. Everyone is welcome here, regardless if they want to join in on off-site stuff.
So what I'd really like to see is some of us stepping up and saying "hey, let's all do <this>". I'll be happy to pin/schedule/encourage such ideas.
Put your ideas out there, and if we start to do it regularly more people will get involved.
Disclosure: Aaron and I met in person on Saturday. I now feel more comfortable talking directly expressing thoughts as he's no longer just a username online
I think we should have more of that.
I can't help that I look like a bored anime character. You'll just have to get comfortable with that. ;)
random.choice(['watch the world cup', 'watch the Grammys', 'marathon Twilight'])
omg team jacob
@poke not the most sold German book but they say most printed in Germany behind the bible, don't know if it is true ;)
please choose #1 crosses fingers
Item 5
Room rules and culture: A discussion in N parts. - Mostly centered around tidying up the Python room rules page, possibly shortening or removing some of them. Will also discuss the addition of some kind of “room culture” section which explains the strange and frankly terrifying culture we have in our room, in particular those things which may confuse new users and aren’t really covered (with reason) in the rules.
notes some rooms have abbreviated versions of the rules in their description.
This was mostly put forward by davidism IIRC.
It could be reordered - for example, starting with seems a bit odd if it's aimed at newer visitors
I think having abbreviated versions in the description is pointless. It'll make it too cluttered.
I'd rather not put the rules in the description. If people can't read the description enough to follow the link, putting the rules there won't help.
I'd rather have a message that introduces the room, like now.
The rules do need to be cleaned up though.
it also needs anchors!
I think we would benefit by shortening the rule list.
for every single item
That page is a mess. I've been thinking about how to re-organize and re-word the rules to be more understandable.
and asking question should be on top
"Click here to indicate that you have read and accepted the room rules."
but anyway, we need anchors.
Yes, please submit a patch for that ;)
I'd personally remove "cute fluffy animals are cool"
But they are cool.
Not around here. They're usually very hot.
but unlike everything else, it states the obvious
I think "don't ask to ask/preamble, don't @ unless been told okay, indent your code, don't link recently asked questions" are the important ones. is blocked for me at my work computer, and the above could easily fit into the description.
Site has gone to RO mode :O
use a proxy
@AaronHall that's just my version. others may disagree
well, then refine it, but it's better than nothing
Rules shouldn't be in the description.
the work computer thing is a dangerous area because there's nothing i can do about that.
@thefourtheye good, now you can concentrate on the meeting instead :P
my point is that IRC does it, other rooms here do it, and it makes the room more noob friendly.
ssh -D my_webfaction_account now you have a socks proxy for firefox
@AnttiHaapala I am following up with few issues in GH and IRC as well :'(
I personally think the "stackoverflow chat is not blocked but any random website is blocked" is not very common... especially for programmers.
Proxies aren't the topic of discussion
I believe we've agreed that a tidying up would be good.
@AaronHall So? Let other rooms do as they wish, that doesn't mean it's a good idea.
Do others agree the rules should contain fewer words?
@AaronHall If people can't read the description enough to follow the link, putting the rules there won't help. I'd rather have a set of well written rules, rather than a terse set.
IRC + noob friendly made my brain all warm
I don't think we can shorten them here and now, I propose that we put a wiki together that people can look at/edit over the next few weeks to sort them out.
Will also discuss the addition of some kind of “room culture” section which explains the strange and frankly terrifying culture we have in our room, in particular those things which may confuse new users and aren’t really covered (with reason) in the rules.
Then once there seems to be a general consensus, we switch.
Sounds like a plan. +1
Agreed. We'll flesh out the changes after the meeting.
(looking at the transcript, this looks like a sopython general room owner meeting)
The room culture seems a lot less terrifying to this noob than the general SO Q/A culture.
I'm here occasionally!
@PatrickMaupin I agree.
@PatrickMaupin +1
How would we put the room culture into words?
"culture" basically breaks down into three parts: why do we talk about off topic stuff, what actions should you avoid doing to have a good time, and ros are maintaining the room quality not punishing
Off-topic = "develop shared values" If you're not hanging here it may not be best to engage, and if you are hanging here, it may be best to figure out which off-topic things are appreciated.
why do we talk about off-topic stuff is because it keeps people coming to the room and hanging around, it is what glues the community. I do not come here to talk about python only, I come here to read the starboard as well
"Other topics not related to programming/Python can be discussed. They are second in priority to Python questions."
"Although we allow off topic discussion, some topics just aren't appropriate here. If you are asked to stop, do so."
^ that actually happened
"Don't expect all your questions to be answered here (even if it is a Python question)"?!
Yeah, that more ties in with the "don't ask to ask" and "if no one answers they can't or don't want to help" rules
"we help you with Python the programming language, not with that Python"
'"but you guys are one of the most active rooms" is not a good reason to ask PHP questions here'
"And please, for the love of all that is nice and fluffy, don’t act like we owe you something. You’ll get flamed to death (and kicked)." - we could adopt that from the Lounge (link)
@Kevin +1
The problem becomes apparent. The issue is that there are innumerable bad behaviors, and making a list starts to sound really overbearing.
The real answer is "use common sense and observe how others behave in the room first".
And making a long list of rules is a punishment to the user that would actually read the rules, and he/she wouldn't have been a problem.
Exactly. We need to communicate how to behave, without listing it.
Off-topic allowed, unless it's programming related and not about Python
well, we still could list a separate detailed etiquette that we can link to users who are misbehaving
As well as communicate that the ROs will step in to keep the room on track, not to dish out personal punishments.
Maybe a separate behavior list from the room rules list, just for calling out the clueless -- just like the ability to say it's an XY problem. (Hey the bot could automatically link for XY problem :)
@AnttiHaapala actually, that's a pretty ok idea
A normal short page that most people should understand, and a good long list of "really, stop" for people who continue to be an issue.
"Rule 3. You don't actually have to read any of the rules after this one. We just need to include them so naughty users can't say 'what I'm doing isn't technically against the rules'"
Rule 4. You can sometimes get away with violating the following, but don't complain if you don't.
(aside: interesting, that message doesn't have an ellipsis on the starboard)
star magic
Rule 5
I don't like XKCD, but rule *:
user image
One of the things that makes me uncomfortable as an owner is when I have to be strict about this stuff. But we do have to be strict about it, it's part of the reason that the room became what it is.
I feel like #5 needs a takeaway and next action
I'll be happy to propose a terse/well-written revision.
- Remove rules and clean up the wording to make it faster to grok
- Work on a clean phrasing of "off-topic, but allowed?"
@AaronHall That would be appreciated.
I've already got a document sitting around. I'll get it into shape and put it on the wiki in the next day or two.
Are people okay with me closing up #5?
@tristan That is a simple image, right to the point.
Item 6: Message us to add your topic.
Mm, is this the actual item?
I just wanted to say hi. So, "Hi!"
I guess we can talk about this though.
For room meetings, please message the ROs or email us your topics. We take feedback very seriously even if we don't always discuss it in the room.
very seriously
Top. Men.
Anyone may propose a topic to the meeting or bring up a concern to the ROs at any point and I promise you that most, if not all, of us will read and discuss.
@JonClements (and the other original owners) have put so much work into making this room what it is. Part of that is strong direction and maintenance, and a welcoming atmosphere. This is why we take any disruptive events and honest feedback seriously.
Okay people, I am out for food. Its already 10:00 and I'll not get food after this time. Short Rhubarb
Also, fair to note: ROs don't always agree with each other and we do make sure to discuss misunderstandings in the room.
That said, we're trying and our goal is to make this a healthy, friendly, productive community that all feel welcome in.
hear hear
With that, I'm going to move this to the final item.
Item 7: Any Other Business
user image
the image speaks for itself
I didn't get a chance to say it during the chatbot discussion, but I want to thank @overactor for his hard work. Whether we ultimately use his project or not, I appreciate the effort.
@overactor yes, indeed, thank you.
(And also thanks to his partner whose name I forgot)
Has the tone of the room changed? Are we quicker to point people to the rules?
I think so... the regulars are prompt pointing out guidelines/rules to newcomers that are starting to go astray
Do you think this is a bad thing?
There was one exchange that sticks out in my mind in which a user was demanding that others answer his survey questions and I kicked him. Do non-ROs think this was the correct action?
I personally think the room feels the same as before.
Ye, I didn't notice the change of tone
I'm pretty sure he was spamming a bunch of rooms.
I wasn't present for that (or I just forgot I was) but it sounds acceptable
My concern is that the top row of people active in the meeting are ROs right now.
I was only an RO for like 30 seconds, tops
Maybe the other's have fallen asleep? :p
With that. It's been 1h45m. I believe it's time to close this up.
All in favor?
We get plenty of participation from non-owners. But part of the point of the meetings is that the ROs can discuss things publically all at one time.
Summer 2015 General Meeting closes